Curse

DRGN · Jan 26, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Don't get me wrong, I have no delusions that this going to cause some sudden, gigantic action by Anet, but it's better than doing nothing. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "Gee, if this was such a big deal, why didn't you say something?", I'd be freaking loaded. It's not just this forum, either. I doubt that graphics.dll(which was easily worked around, I should add) used by some of the bots being disabled within a week or so of that thread on QQ being posted was mere coincidence. Similarly, I don't think the impact of the uproar over account security issues lately has been null.

At the very least, it shows that they know about a large problem and don't care to fix it or even bother to acknowledge it. People can do with that information what they will.

DarkNecrid · Jan 26, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

So many people in this thread who are blind to the issue at hand. Who cares if the OP is slightly inaccurate and a bot can't get Rank 100 in RBR easily? That may be one of the goals of Borat posting this, but it is hardly the only one, and this is easily a special case where locking a thread for slightly off-topic posting would be detrimental to you guys - the players.

I say "you guys" because a couple months ago I uninstalled Guild Wars. Prior to that, I used some of these bots on an alternate account to see how legit they were. Mind you, the one I was using was not the high quality one some people are hinting at, and it definitely wasn't the one that modded the client to get the weapon sets etc on display in the Party UI.

I can tell you that Martin, Fril, etc completely underestimate how well these bots can play, I was using a subpar one and made a lot of in-game money via earning Balthazar Faction at a very fast rate by completely destroying non-botting teams in various PvP types and making them into Zkeys. There is no "faking" the bot out, at no point does the bot ever have to overwrite what you do. I believe Martin mentioned splitting to destroy a Mesmer bot: the bot was poorly setup/the player was an idiot.

You can still control your character if need be - quite easily, meaning splitting off a properly used bot won't work. You can't fake out the bot by canceling casts as it is quite easy to set it up so it only interrupts at a certain cast point (and set it up so it randomizes this value too). It won't interrupt Half Casts if you tell it not to. A bot is only as good as the person who uses it, this does not mean you should not be outraged by even the mere possibility of people using bots.

Even though I was using a sub par bot, and I mean really sub par, I was destroying people of a MUCH higher skill quality than myself. Even my sub par bot was a thousand times better than the Hero AI so the whole deal of PvP players beating the crappy hero AI so they can beat bots easily too is a load of shit as well.

I won't say that bots are unbeatable, I will say that the only ways of beating a properly used bot are:
a) The person behind the bot sucks at using the bot right.
b) The person behind the bot did not set it up optimally.
c) You energy deny the bot in PvP. If it's a Mesmer, good luck he'll just Power Drain you for all eternity, and running mass energy denial is an exercise in failure at the moment anyways.
d) You're using a bot yourself.

Frankly, I don't know if there is a RBR bot personally. I will say though, that there is a bot for pretty much every other facet of gameplay that I ran into, and making new bots using the scripting that the one bot I used had was REALLY easy, I actually made a test one that just swapped my weapon sets (and hit the cancel key so they swapped faster) so that I could get HCT/HRT on the proper attribute for all of my abilities. There are bots to farm high yield areas, bots to do chest runs, bot to do Drunkard for you, bots to weapon swap shields properly based on element, bots to play certain builds properly (like a Backbreaker Sin back when they were popular), and so on.

The worst part is, and this is the punchline right here: these things have been around for years and have been used almost as much as they are right now. People refuse to believe they work just because the Client Server infrastructure of Guild Wars is very top notch (which is true). However, nothing is flawless, and that includes Guild Wars, and these things have been all around you every day for years now, you probably none-the-wiser. I know I was, anyways, but I know they've existed for that long.

In the end, I see no reason to play this game anymore, and I haven't for awhile now, but that does not mean I don't care for it.

Quite frankly, anyone who asks for a lock on this thread or actually does lock this thread, no matter how bad it gets, is deplorable in my eyes. There are many issues it's perfectly OK to be defeatist about - Fril can tell you I was very defeatist (and still am) about PvP ever getting anything it honestly could use to grow, or balance ever properly being done, one thing you should never be defeatist about is the security of the game.

ArenaNet is slow, yes I'll admit that. However, history will show you that even if they are slow, they get the job done eventually, and that's more than you can say about a lot of other companies. Let's not forget the pretty quick response to duping, or the eventual fix to Ursan Blessing people.

ArenaNet does listen, and you guys are letting the botters win at the moment. Ignore RBR "Top 100" for a second and stop being so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing narrow minded and look with your own two eyes, there are people botting 99.9% of this game, if you guys don't care, then that's great. I mean, botting is only one step away from people who find ways to actually "hack", get god mode, get guaranteed drops, speed hack, etc.

Maybe you guys will care enough then.

Tullzinski · Jan 26, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

I doubt that graphics.dll(which was easily worked around, I should add) used by some of the bots being disabled within a week or so of that thread on QQ being posted was mere coincidence.

If the disabling of the graphics.dll was an attempt by ANET to combat the bots then it failed miserably, perhaps it stopped a few people that did not have some knowledge of how this worked. However the "how to" guides for the bot program were updated pretty fast. The injector was made widely available too.

On the flip side if the attempt by ANET was indeed done to combat the bots then I have to give them a props for trying to do something (even though it failed miserably)

Still confused why no announcement was released about it. Maybe it was the old "if we told you what we were doing then the botters would know about it also", but this proves how silly that statement is. When the bots no longer worked the bot community set out immediately to determine what was wrong and fix it. And by not saying anything about it they just look like they are doing nothing about it.

glountz · Jan 27, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I can tell you that Martin, Fril, etc completely underestimate how well these bots can play, I was using a subpar one and made a lot of in-game money via earning Balthazar Faction at a very fast rate by completely destroying non-botting teams in various PvP types and making them into Zkeys. There is no "faking" the bot out, at no point does the bot ever have to overwrite what you do. I believe Martin mentioned splitting to destroy a Mesmer bot: the bot was poorly setup/the player was an idiot.

You can still control your character if need be - quite easily, meaning splitting off a properly used bot won't work. You can't fake out the bot by canceling casts as it is quite easy to set it up so it only interrupts at a certain cast point (and set it up so it randomizes this value too). It won't interrupt Half Casts if you tell it not to. A bot is only as good as the person who uses it, this does not mean you should not be outraged by even the mere possibility of people using bots.

Even though I was using a sub par bot, and I mean really sub par, I was destroying people of a MUCH higher skill quality than myself. Even my sub par bot was a thousand times better than the Hero AI so the whole deal of PvP players beating the crappy hero AI so they can beat bots easily too is a load of shit as well.

I won't say that bots are unbeatable, I will say that the only ways of beating a properly used bot are:
a) The person behind the bot sucks at using the bot right.
b) The person behind the bot did not set it up optimally.
c) You energy deny the bot in PvP. If it's a Mesmer, good luck he'll just Power Drain you for all eternity, and running mass energy denial is an exercise in failure at the moment anyways.
d) You're using a bot yourself.

+999.
Exactly what I said some posts earlier.
Martin and Co. just assume bots play instead of you, which is wrong.

Bots must be considered as 100% interrupt success rate boosters, which is just insane, whatever ultimate top player you are. I mean, I just heard of bots that some bots auto equip your correct weapon set with escape fastening key when you press the corresponding skill, with the HP/defense set for when you move or don't cast (I never had such a bot in my hands, though).

And when you start keying your interrupts on certains skills, say, a power spike on WoH, a power block on an elementalist/mesmer/necro, or a Pleak on whatever monk spell, things go wrong very very quickly on the other team.

To Katar:
You're misleaded. OP threat will absolutely have no effect on A-net. In fact, he doesn't really believe like ANet will ever answer to him if you read carefully. It is more of a bragging ultimatum.

Plaguing all PvP (as it was not already) with bots will ensure this company a reaction, not just the mere post. But I repeat myself here.

Ok I stop here.

I would finish on one thing: A-Net policy about bot usage ("you will be banned" and all this shit) is just bragging. I have used bots in PvP since more than 1 year now, and I still wait my account to be banned.

Regards;
A former GW player.

Kattar · Jan 27, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

You're misleaded. OP threat will absolutely have no effect on A-net. In fact, he doesn't really believe like ANet will ever answer to him if you read carefully. It is more of a bragging ultimatum.

No, I agree with you. Minus the last bit - I think Killed is being sincere here.

BuD · Jan 27, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Still confused why no announcement was released about it.

Like the announcement they made before a double faction weekend, when they announced they were looking for FFF botters & will be banning offenders for 2 weeks

Reverend Dr · Jan 28, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

a 2 week ban, man that will sure show the botters who's boss

Tullzinski · Jan 28, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Does anyone know more about the removal of the Graphics.dll? Specifically was it removed from the client side completely?

The reason I am wondering is if that file was removed and its functions were moved to the server side(or elsewhere on the client/hidden), could ANET then program GW to not start if the graphics.dll is detected on the client in guild wars program folder(or whereever it used to be).

Since the graphics.dll has to be injected for the bot program to work it could be possible to program GW to go back to desktop if the program detects it in an improper place. Just thinking about a possible fix...

If this has a possibility to work what would be the possible workarounds(if any) for it?

An unfortunate side effect of this is that other programs that people may be using that ANET thinks are Ok would be affected also. Small price to pay IMO.

DarkNecrid · Jan 28, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Graphics.dll didn't actually do anything, people just made mods that replaced the .dll with something that did.

Kattar · Jan 28, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

From what I've seen, the graphics.dll was disabled. The injection method still works, just with other files besides the graphics.dll.

Tullzinski · Jan 28, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Been researching the injection methods and how they work and are loaded, it looks to me like ANET has one hell of a issue on its hands.

Prevention seems to be very difficult and there are multiple methods of injection to be dealt with, and new ways being implemented. Detection can also be hard with some of the current injection methods.

In a nutshell, I can no longer bust ANET's balls on trying to fix this. If they can find a way to stop this awesome, but until then I find it hard to ask for something looks very hard to stop considering how this stuff works and how easy microsoft has made it use.

I was looking at something called Detours (from Microsoft Research) which can detect and detour application API's. Maybe something like this can be used by ANET to at least detect the API in use and ban the crap out of them...hopefully not just wishful thinking on my part.

Kattar · Jan 28, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Been researching the injection methods and how they work and are loaded, it looks to me like ANET has one hell of a issue on its hands.

Yep. Seems like this is the main reason why it hasn't been fixed up to this point. Mainly since it was take a complete redesign of how the client transports information back to the servers.

Yay GW2!?

Samuel1 · Jan 28, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

the thing you have to remember is games dont nerf bots, bots nerf games. even if they did anything about it, which they did but it was a joke attempt, somebody would hack around it and another working patch would be up in a matter of days, and anet doesnt have the resources/time/money to keep updating their game like most other games (WoW)

Chronos the Defiler · Jan 28, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Been researching the injection methods and how they work and are loaded, it looks to me like ANET has one hell of a issue on its hands.

Prevention seems to be very difficult and there are multiple methods of injection to be dealt with, and new ways being implemented. Detection can also be hard with some of the current injection methods.

In a nutshell, I can no longer bust ANET's balls on trying to fix this. If they can find a way to stop this awesome, but until then I find it hard to ask for something looks very hard to stop considering how this stuff works and how easy microsoft has made it use.

I was looking at something called Detours (from Microsoft Research) which can detect and detour application API's. Maybe something like this can be used by ANET to at least detect the API in use and ban the crap out of them...hopefully not just wishful thinking on my part.

This may also unfortunately ban the users who use the Graphics.dll for the KSmod (Unreal Tournament Sounds mod). Even thought it may not work anymore, people may attempt to use an injection method and get a ban because they wanted to hear "Headshot" again

Tullzinski · Jan 29, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kattar

Yay GW2!?

If they have figured out how to stop this on GW2 it would be awesome.

Sitting here death leveling and playing full tilt poker and wondering if the guys next to me are using this to see everyones cards. Great way to make money if they are.

@Chronos... I hear you, it is unfortunate there is no way to seperate it.

Really doubt that this will be fixed before GW2 is out.

_________________________________

Ignorance truly is bliss, I was better off being ignorant on this one...

Missmelady · Jan 31, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Personnally I have not cared that people have used bots in guildwars. That is untill recently. After the release of the snowball arena bot on No names the game has gone to the crap.

Normally this would not make me mad but the use of the bot is so apparent and yet anet does nothing to prevent said bots.

Anywho instead of balancing skills(months late) I would much rather have them take care of the bots. I can deal with sins farming a crap load of money. I can deal with the bots in bergan. I can not deal with the bots in pvp. The game is no longer based on skill. But on whos bot has the better timing in the game.

What a joke anet.

Braxton619 · Jan 31, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

First of all, all games have bots. WoW has a ton of bots and other games as well.

I don't care too much about bots. You know there going to show up... why care about it? Stop being a baby about it.

*lemming* · Jan 31, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braxton619

First of all, all games have bots. WoW has a ton of bots and other games as well.

I don't care too much about bots. You know there going to show up... why care about it? Stop being a baby about it.

Don't post if you don't know what's going on.

nitetime · Jan 31, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braxton619

I don't care too much about bots. You know there going to show up... why care about it? Stop being a baby about it.

because they are destroying whats left of this game. and if anet wants to keep a player base they really should try to solve some of these issues and stop them from continuing.

Missmelady · Jan 31, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Snowball arena bot = utter fail with the at's